Can I then ask this question? What is truth? Who defines truth? Who lays down what is right and wrong? Is there than an absolute truth, right and wrong, or is it all subjective to everyone’s opinions?

Also, what is logic? Who started it? Who defined it? (Since even in the scientific world, there are many definitions and applications of logic). What was once logical may not be so. How than can one conclude that in our current understanding, that one thing is logical and one is not.

And, I didn’t blindly choose the Christian faith because my parents were Christian. I’ve explored it, studied it, and while logic is one impt aspect, logic isn’t everything. Many dismiss faith as a silly whimsical fancy, maybe because they don’t understand it, don’t think much of it, or have never had it before.

But faith is going beyond the intellectual boundaries of what we know at the moment, and going into other aspects of our beings. It’s knowing deep in our soul (yes we do have a soul), that we are beings who go towards evil rather than good, that doing good is never going to make up for that fact and that human death isn’t the end.

And it appears you’ve taken what conclusions you wanted from the Bible, filtering out just what you wanted as “proof”. Read it with an open mind, free of judgment. See what else jumps out at ya.

Also, I’ll encourage you to look beyond science and logic as the it and end all. there’s more to life, its meaning and the way we live. to dismiss other aspects of your being (emotions, spiritual), is to lose other impt aspects that make up a human being.

We can go on and on. But this will be my last reply. I believe arguments serve no major purpose other than to point out differences and dwell on them. Thus, take my replies or leave them, it’s ultimately up to you. I will, however, be praying for you (even if you’ll probably dismiss this as foolish).

Take care!

I think you’ll find that few things are more humbling than the pursuit of truth in science. Read anything by Carl Sagan. I promise it is a humbling, fascinating and moving journey based on rationality and awe for the wonderful universe in which we live.

I have studied the bible quite extensively. I’ve also read the Bhagavad Gita and the Qur’an. Did you ever explore these options before you decided that Christianity was right? Or did you simply decide on what what you were raised on?

My “magical man” and “fantasy” comments convey the respect I have for religion. I don’t see what truth is found by believing things on insufficient evidence. Surely, as people, we have “spiritual” needs, but we need not believe in things that there is no substantial evidence to support. I don’t believe I ever said ’something can grow out nothing’. If you’re referring to the big bang theory, there’s some evidence but we are VERY far away from reaching conclusions about it. It seems reasonable, based on our present body of knowledge, to suggest that this is a hypothesis worth pursuing. The argument that God created it begs the question “who created God?” And if God had no creator, you haven’t explained anything about the world.

The bible teaches us important moral values? There’s not much moral about the bible, from a modern perspective. I don’t see any morality behind keeping the sabbath holy or the punishments for violating this rule. Nor do I find morality in the banning of shellfish and pork, the condoning of slavery, misogyny and genocide. There are plenty of wonderful things in the Bible too, but if there was a God I doubt he’d hide his existence as much as he appears to do and I’d expect much more out of his book(s).

I would encourage you to study science and logic before you make claims on insufficient evidence.

Russ:
“I am certain the universe was created by a magical man and I have all the answers to the world in his book.”
1. I won’t expound more on your first sentence other than magical man is not equal to God.

2. I never said all answers to the world are in the Bible. In fact, they are not. but the answers to the IMPORTANT ones are. Btw, have you studied the Bible to know what it says instead of having 2nd hand knowledge of it?

Pride? The pride I’m referring to is thinking humans are greater than we actually are.

If you strongly believe something can grow out of nothing, and that’s logic to you, than I’m sure not going to argue with you over it. Reason being, it’s a fact than one cannot argue to change someone else’s mind. I will just encourage you to study the Bible before you use words like “magic man”, “fantasy”.

‘There would be no Christmas if not for “traditional religion”.’

There would be no Christmas on Dec. 25th if it wasn’t for all the pre-existing pagan religions that had holidays celebrating the winter solstice. Wasn’t it because the early leaders of your faith felt left out around that time of year too? There isn’t a single shred of historical evidence to suggest Jesus was born on December 25th. It just didn’t happen. So non-believers adopting gatherings or traditions that coincide with the traditions of the groups before and around them are not unheard of and it’s a part of your history as a Christian too.

‘It’s more illogical to dismiss the notion of a Creator. I called that stubborness [sic] and silly pride.’

It appears you’re as ignorant of logic and rationality as you are of the history of the faith you espouse. Is it pride that says “I don’t know where the universe came from”? Because to me that sounds infinitely more humble than “I am certain the universe was created by a magical man and I have all the answers to the world in his book.”

Do you see the arrogance of certainty vs. uncertainty? Science brings us enormous power in its rigor but acknowledges the difference between fact and our best guess. Your faith doesn’t differentiate between bronze-age fantasy and reality.

‘Just because THEY don’t get it, doesn’t mean it’s illogical and not critical thinking.’

Explain to me what is LOGICAL about believing in an invisible man. Explain to me where CRITICAL THINKING is involved when people people say “something can’t come from nothing” and then say that “God has always been”? Isn’t it more likely to say that matter has always been and take out the magic of which there is no evidence?

Oh, and as for your thoughts on the big bang theory, think of us a debris formed by gravity, then things make sense. After, the Earth was made in a day…

Sounds like sour grapes to me. If the agnostics and atheists feel left out they can celebrate their own special significant “goodness” day instead of trying to take the holiness out of Christmas.

Well, if you’re equating a molecule to an intelligent and conscious Being with an ability to make decision, than I can see your point.

You ask a very good question. Where does God come from? In that question, you’re acknowledging all things must have a beginning and an end. Then, let me ask you, where does the molecule come from? Is it just there? If it was there, what spurred it to evolve into intelligent beings (us) with the ability to know right and wrong?

Oh and December 25 is a date. I didn’t say Christmas was a date. Christmas has a reason behind the celebrations. Why does Christmas exist? Because people wanted another day of presents? Maybe you can subtantiate your claim that Christ isn’t the “reason for the season”?

Just things to think about.